Jesus answered this in this manner, "Mat 6:24 No one can be slave to two masters; for he will either hate the first and love the second, or scorn the second and be loyal to the first...." (CJB)
In other words, to claim Christ as Lord AND Savior, & to then claim that you choose to participate in something which is antithetical to the teachings of Yeshua, results in having to be false in one of those assertions. This would be the same as saying that you're a Christian & also saying that you accept being an unrepentant mass murderer, or an unrepentant bigot. The 2 don't go together.
Christ meets us all at the point of our needs. However, He doesn't allow us to stay there. He leads us to clean up our lives, to turn away from our sins. Because He is holy, He cannot abide in us if we continue to embrace our sin.
Brady
· 6 months ago
Hi Randy- I love this line, "Yet, again, there is so much more to life, and Christianity, than sexuality. I believe, again humbly submitted opinion alert, both sides need to catch that vision of Life more broadly," and I think it actually ties back in to your idea that one of the two of you (the gay Christian) would be surprised when they got to heaven. The reason being that I think you're right--someone's going to be right and wrong in this situation, but then again, in the grand scheme of things, I think most Christians (gay or not) would be surprised to hear how many other things they were wrong about too.
Lawrence- I see your point and I've certainly heard it before. My question is whether you are looking at your statement that, "In other words, to claim Christ as Lord AND Savior, & to then claim that you choose to participate in something which is antithetical to the teachings of Yeshua" is broad enough. Man, if we had to judge everyone based on people that choose to participate in someting antithetical to the Bible, would anyone be able to make the cut? I'm just worried that your comment is singling out one group, one sin, and not realizing the pass it may imply to those that don't deal with that particular attraction/sexuality/identity.
David Higginbotham
· 6 months ago
Randy, Good post!
Having read several of your posts on this important issue I am glad to find myself in agreement with you more and more. I spent to many years chained to a theology of exclusion based on preferences and cultural sensitivities rather than a simple and direct understanding of the teachings of the scripture. Having moved away from that restrictive place where freedom in Christ is the exception, rather than the rule, I have long since decided that I will no longer submit to those restrictions (Col. 2:20 - 3:1-12) and will confront them when I believe it is appropriate to do so.
I am currently working on a post for my blog which relates my conversation with my foster brother about this very issue; can Christians be gay. He struggled with SSA and his faith the last third of his life.
Keep up the good work...
Godspeed...
Jennifer Thorne
· 6 months ago
I do believe that you can be "gay" and a Christian. In fact, I was and at the proper time Jesus called me out of the gay lifestyle and into a life fully devoted and committed to Him.
I think that the question is not can you be "gay" and a Christian, but what direction is your lifes devotion headed, towards Christ in all it's fullness or trying to part and partial it and retain parts of the old self, even after Christ has by His Spirit convicted you.
In the same way, I was also a Christian and a full view evolutionist. And in His proper time I have also left most of that, infact all of the behind. Did that make me less of a Christian or not a Christian, I do not believe so.
I am continually being conformed to His image.
Also a few years after I became a believer God began dealing with my drinking. It was totally getting in the way of my growth and He called me to change. I did not submit at first. God allowed me to continue until I basically hung myself and realized that what He was calling me to was far better. So, was I a Christian while I was in that struggle over alcohol, I believe I was, hence the struggle.
Really I believe that God deals with us just perfectly and calls us to greater levels of changed behavior on His time, when it is truly best for us. Who is to say when we should make that commitment out of the old life behaviors and into Holiness?
Randy
· 6 months ago
Sorry for the comment thing changing but we have had problems. All comments on this thread will show up in a second. I am SWAMPED and will respond to everyone later tonight.
anon
· 6 months ago
Maybe we'll both be surprised when we get there and God will say something like we're both right (gay christians and post gay christians)! That'd be fun and kind of wild, hey?
Randy
· 6 months ago
and NO I didn't delete anything I promise. I just got word that the Disqus folks are ready to look at my "issues" and I had to turn on the system for them to be able to troubleshoot.
The comments will show up soon (whenever the synch occurs. Keep checking back :).
Randy
· 6 months ago
Whew ... OK they are here! Please pray for Disqus to figure out the issues going on in the background (duplicate comments in the database.)
Peter
· 6 months ago
Here is my humble opinion (with which I fully expect disagreement and that's okay): I don't think the Bible is clear on this issue at all. I understand and appreciate arguments on both sides. I will say that I don't like when people who simply take the translated text, apply it to modern society, and then quote it to me. That places too much power in the hands of translators, who are not (necessarily) divinely inspired. And, quite simply, it just doesn't work. If anyone is serious about understanding the Hebrew -- and most importantly, the Greek -- texts, they have to read those texts in their native language and devote months of study to contemporaneous texts to understand what those words really meant back then. It's not as black-and-white as either side tries to make it seem. It is no coincidence that the 1 Corinthians 6 text, which many claim is about same-sex relationships, has been translated over 30 different ways in English alone! If it were clear, then why this difficulty?
Scholars on both sides, and neutral scholars as well, have looked into this and there is truly no clear concensus. I read the New Testament in the original Greek, but even with that ability, I can't pretend to fully understand the context of these words in that time period. Some words, for example "arsenokoitai" in 1 Corinthians 6, were invented by Paul, so they are even more unclear.
This is why continuing revelation is, to me, so important. As a Quaker, I believe that only Jesus is the ultimate Word of God ("In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" -- my own translation). The Bible contains the inspired Words of God. But God can still inspire us today just like he did Paul and so many others. Because the Bible is unclear on this issue, in my opinion, I can only follow the Light of Christ and hope it guides me to clarity and certainty.
I think this is hard to do. I think that it's hard -- for all of us -- not to mix in cultural and social notions of right and wrong with a true interpretation of God's message on this issue. I am comfortable that I am following Christ's Light to the best of my meek human ability. I truly believe that if society didn't stigmatize gay people, then so many children wouldn't develop self-hatred issues over the issue. I don't believe -- and this is just my belief and opinion -- that these feelings come from God.
Philip Orellano Sr.
· 6 months ago
Dearly Beloved, I have found after much prayer and scriptural scrutiny that one must love Christ above everyone and everything, including our sexual orientation and passionate desires. Jesus said " Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come lifeeverlasting". This includes our old lifestyles, sexual preferences etc. Jesus also said "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it".
Beloved, I know its not easy but to follow Christ we must crucify the flesh with it's passions and its desires. If you love Him you must deny yourself (that means to put all your trust and burdens on Him because on your own you will not be able to do it). "And he said to them all, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it" (Luke 9:23, 24).
One last thing my beloved in Christ. The Lord will not let you go through something you can not bear. Look and meditate on this verse " There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13). This approach may seem simplistic to some but it is scriptural, doable and sound doctrine. I leave you with this, "cast your burden upon the Lord and He shall sustain you, He shall never suffer the righteous to be moved" (Psalm 55:22).
Sincerely yours,
Philip Sr.
Chuck Bridwell
· 6 months ago
Hi Randy,
I have to agree with you to a point. I do believe that when we get to walk the streets of Heaven, that we may discuss what our differences of opinion here on Earth were. Things like , did we worshiping in a solemn style like the Christians of Martin Luther's day or Rocking for Jesus like a lot of the youth today. Did we sprinkle the newly saved or did we dunk 'em in water like an Oreo in a glass of milk. No, instead of being tempted to say "I told you so" about things that we had previously believed and maybe even argued about when we were here, I believe we will laugh at ourselves for being worried about unimportant "stuff."
And, as Brandy above said in difference to Lawrence's statement,"Man, if we had to judge everyone based on people that choose to participate in something antithetical to the Bible, would anyone be able to make the cut?" The question is not whether anyone would make it. Obviously, we wouldn't, or we wouldn't have needed a savior to begin with. The question is, whether our relationship with Christ was real enough to give us a desire to please Him. The Apostle Paul said in Ephesians. 2:8, "that we are saved by grace through faith." But he also said in James 2:20, "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? " It's a shame that a lot of people see Jesus as a "Get out of Hell" card and maybe even believe that a statement of faith is enough to qualify as a relationship with Christ. That's no different than the heterosexual who chooses to "say" their wedding vows, and then commits adultery on their spouse at every opportunity. These two people may share the same last name, but do they really have a marriage? A true relationship with Christ will bring about a change. that's what it means when the Bible says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."
And let's not forget the words of Jesus about how he will judge: Matthew 7:21-23 l(New King James Version) 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Amy
· 6 months ago
Great post! I have learned to speak the truth when asked, other wise I stick with, "Let everyone work out their own salvation with fear and trembling". When Christ has been invite in the Holy Spirit come in and take up residency. The bible teaches that he is the one that guides, teaches, counsels, and convicts but it's up to the individual to submit to his hand of love.
You said, I just believe that we won’t be arguing about this walking down the streets of gold. I Agree. I have had to bit my tongue a few times this week. It's going to be incredible to see Jesus face to face. :excited: woohoo!!
Stephen Black
· 6 months ago
When God's word is so very clear on a subject matter; then I personally allow HIS Word to take deep root in my heart and do not allow the traditions of men, the doctrines of churches and denominations to cause clouding. This used to be the case when I first started my walk as a "Catholic/Baptacostal"
I find this particular subject one that seems to be very difficult for people to receive - "The Gay Gospel." This is the very subject that I believe the Father is going to have me write on in detail that will underscore the beginning of wisdom from God & His word, and compel us by the Love of His Spirit which results in an adoration of HIM in obeying Him and dying to our appetites and our flesh.
May all those who call upon the Lord work out their salvation in fear and awe of almighty God.
So here's the WORD OF THE LORD:
Ephesians 5:1-9 AMPLIFIED... "THEREFORE BE imitators of God [copy Him and follow His example], as well-beloved children [imitate their father]. And walk in love, [esteeming and delighting in one another] as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a [a]slain offering and sacrifice to God [for you, so that it became] a sweet fragrance.But immorality (sexual vice of any kind) and all impurity of lustful, rich, wasteful living or greediness must not even be named among you, as is fitting and proper among saints, people who are consecrated to God, or people who call themselves Christians. Let there be no filthiness (obscenity, indecency) nor foolish and sinful (silly and corrupt) talk, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting or becoming; but instead voice your thankfulness [to God]. For be sure of this: that no person practicing sexual vice or impurity in thought or in life, or one who is covetous [who has lustful desire for the property of others and is greedy for gain]--for he [in effect] is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments [for these sins], for through these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of rebellion and disobedience. So do not associate or be sharers with them. For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of Light [lead the lives of those native-born to the Light]. For the fruit (the effect, the product) of the Light or [c]the Spirit [consists] in every form of kindly goodness, uprightness of heart, and trueness of life."
So is it mean or unkind to merely speak the Word of God in truth and in love, especially since you want people to really be there in eternity? Learning to love God fully and love people more sincerely....
Stephen
Cindy
· 6 months ago
A good post. Thank you, Randy, for being a voice of sanity. That your stance on this mirrors my own is, I'm sure, merely coincidental to its superiority. ;)
In all seriousness...yes.
Randy
· 6 months ago
Hey everyone, I LOVE the thoughtful comments on this post so far. I had a long late dinner with an online friend, came home to fifty facebook status comments and message and then made the MJ and Farrah post. Now it is 12:20 am and I am so tired. I'll join in on the conversation tomorrow.
Thank you so much for chiming in and I encourage you all to keep going. See you tomorrow.
aubrey
· 6 months ago
Why does one view have to be right and the other wrong? If this issue were so important to God, why are there only 6 or 7 verses about it which are highly vague and disputed?
There are some who believe homosexuals are called to celibacy. Some who believe God blesses same-sex relationships. Both are welcome at the table and both are right because they are following their God-given conscience and convictions with the help of God's word. In the end it will not matter who was right and who was wrong. The issue is not about who's having gay sex, but who's a truly loving person, in the deepest part of themselves. This has nothing to do with sexuality.
We are called to love one another, this is the sum of all the commandments. Gay and Christian are NOT mutually exclusive. ...
JoeDallas
· 6 months ago
For me, the real question here is whether or not you can lose your salvation. If you can't, then anyone who has truly been born again is, and will remain, saved. That would include many who identify as gay Christians. But if there is a point at which you've crossed too many lines, or too great a line, or for too long, or whatever, then people who practice sexual sin after salvation could eventually lose their position in Christ. But how, and when, and how can anyone tell? That's always puzzled me and, I suspect, a large segment of the church. So for me the issue of whether or not homosexual acts are sinful is fully settled, but the issue of eternal security isn't.
david
· 6 months ago
I like what chuck smith jr. says, "While the bible may be God's inspired word our interpretations aren't." I mean no disrespect to you Randy or to Joe Dallas, from my years in Exodus, I have met you both and have had conversations with you and I found you to be nice guys. However, over a period of time with prayer and bible study I have come to different conclusions on this topic than you have. God works in my life just as He does yours and countless others on a daily basis. I believe that God is more interested in the quality of our relationships than with the gender makeup of our relationships.
Brady
· 6 months ago
Hi Joe. I understand where you are coming from and can appreciate your conclusion. After reading your comment, though, I'm left wondering if the issue of sexual sins being more important or more serious than other sins is a settled issue for you. In reading your response, you single out sexual sins. I wonder if your response would be the same if you took out the word sexual there?
Randy
· 6 months ago
Brady - Agreed. We are all going to have a wake up call when we get to heaven. I hope I get most of mine done before I get there though :).
Randy
· 6 months ago
Thanks Jennifer. I didn't know that about your other struggles so I pray you are blessed with the sharing of those as a part of your testimony.
Let's face it, sanctification is a wholly unique process for us all. I think we are to compel each other (believers) toward righteousness but the path is led by the Lord alone. I have to trust that Him in that. I can walk with someone but my part is limited to simply that: walking with them (again other believers.)
Randy
· 6 months ago
Anon - it would definitely be wild but I am not sure about fun :). The God I know says "His ways are not our ways." That He is constant, consistent and unchanging. I think it would be really cruel of him to arbitrarily change his mind from person to person on such fundamental relational issues.
Thank you for your comment.
Randy
· 6 months ago
Hi Philip. First off I just visited your site and am so sorry to hear about your son.
Thank you for adding your comments.
Randy
· 6 months ago
Hi Chuck,
thanks for adding your thoughts. That last scripture deeply disturbed me as a young Christian and it always keeps me on my toes and pressing into communion with Him. Thank yo for the reminder.
Randy
· 6 months ago
"Let everyone work out their own salvation with fear and trembling".
Exactly. I'm excited for that day too.
Randy
· 6 months ago
Well, my detractors don't agree about the sanity part :). You cracka' me up.
Thank you.
Randy
· 6 months ago
Hi Aubrey,
The whole bible is a huge relational roadmap of examples of God's will, human self-sufficiency gone amok, good relationships ... lots of bad relationships, conflict, peace ... on and on. That's why I say life is so much more than this one issue.
That stated, for God to say even one word is a universe worth of meaning and importance. They are "... the words of Life." Those few verses in the context of the whole stewarded by the Holy Spirit completely transformed my identity and worldview.
And actually the sum of all commandments is this
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to q put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
I can appreciate the sentiment and even the desire but this issue is not about who is a truly loving person in the deepest part of themselves. If that were true those people wouldn't need a Savior to save them from their sins.
All have fallen short, all of us need to be saved through faith. That's basic Christian doctrine.
thanks for adding your opinions.
Randy
· 6 months ago
Great summation Joe. :-)
Randy
· 6 months ago
He didn't "single" out sexual sins per se ... he was writing in context of the thread. Your question is still a good one and I hope he might be able to respond.
JoeDallas
· 6 months ago
Brady, my response would be the same regarding any sin. The issue of sexual sin being more important than other sin is by no means settled for me; in fact, I disagree with that concept.So if this thread had been titled "Are gossiping Christians saved?" , I would have said "for me the issue of whether or not gossip is sinful is fully settled, but the issue of eternal security isn't." My point was, I don't think you have to believe someone ISN'Tsaved just because they practice a sin, nor do you have to believe someone's behavior is NOT a sin just because they are saved.
Amy Lee
· 6 months ago
Excellent. From my own life's experience these kind of questions come up to justify actions. When you read the word in context and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you, the truth will come. I have found the truth will always contradict natural ways. The idea that one can add Jesus to their lives without surrendering all to Him is just not scriptural. I have to say that I have been praying about how to respond to the idea of a person identifying as Gay and adding Christ. We are told to speak the truth in love to those who have ears to hear what the spirit has to say. Christ tells us to share the truth and if they don't receive it just dust your feet off and keep going. I'm convinced that walking in love is the key. Love the unlovely and pray for those who reject you.
david
· 6 months ago
Many of us have studied the word in context and historically, we've allowed the Holy Spirit to teach us, we have surrendered to Christ, and many of us believe that to being a Christ follower and our sexuality our not at odds with each other.
Amy Lee
· 6 months ago
David that is between you and the Lord. The interruption of scripture I have received tells me other wise. Jesus loves us all and He says when we seek we will find and when we ask for truth it will be given. It's not my place to argue the word or try to convince you, that's the Holy spirits job. All Christ asks me to do is walk in obedience to His word and my personal convictions. If you have accepted Jesus into your heart, that's awesome!
Jennifer Thorne
· 6 months ago
Hi Joe. I agree with you here. There is always a higher level to consider in all matters. This one of once saved always saved does not sit completely well in my soul. I really believe, after several years of study that it is possible to walk away from the Lord. I do not believe that this happens easily but I believe it is possible.
It is funny because my brother in law has moved from Protestant to Catholic and has been email conversing with me for a couple of years. I must admit that getting into Catholic theology has been very refreshing and appealing but I just haven't been able to make that switch. For the first year he kept referring to me about once saved always save. It took me a full year of repeatedly telling him that I do not subscribe to that position, even though it is a popular Protestant position. Finally he read my blog and commented, wow you are very Catholic in your beliefs. I'm taking that as a great compliment.
Amy Lee
· 6 months ago
I do know that the bibles says, When we receive Christ into our hearts that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. What does seals mean to some? We make choices everyday and some lead us away from God and center around self. This is were forgiveness comes in. I have learned to be forgiven conscious and not sin conscious. Once the Holy Spirit comes in, I don't believe he leaves. At least I haven' seen anywhere in the word that tells me otherwise. God promises to complete the work He starts in us and I believe He does.
Jennifer Thorne
· 6 months ago
Hey Peter;
Thanks for your comments. I also agree that Jesus is the living Word of God made flesh. Our lives will forever draw nearer to Him and Know him more fully the longer that we walk with Him.
I do believe that interpreting the bible is not that complicated. One of the first things that I learned as a believer is that you interpret the bible one word at a time, the word in the context of the sentence, the sentence in the context of the paragraph, the paragraph in the context of the chapter, the chapter in the context of the subject, the subject in the context of the book, and each book in context relative to all the other books of scripture.
This would be true for any written document, not just the bible. Although you say that in this subject there is no "clear consensus" I believe is not true. You have to start every thing from God's perspective from the beginning. He made them male and female, the fullest human representation of the image of God. Even Jesus verified this fact, allowing for Moses and divorce, but it was never the original intent.
Any interpreter can take things out of context, not intentionally, but still a poor interpretation. The bible speaks of only two sanctioned positions of being, married (male and female cleaving becoming one flesh) or single. Any other schism from that is not what God wants for His children. That doesn't mean that two people of the opposite sex can't get it wrong, they can and do all the time. Just look at our society.
The idea that society puts a stigma on homosexuality and is the root cause of self hatred does not make sense to me. I knew from the beginning that my same sex attractions for women (sexualized attractions) were wrong, not because society said so but because I just knew it, just like I knew that lying, cheating, or stealing was wrong. What i didn't know was what to do with those feelings. I could not get rid of them. I didn't know the Lord at that time in my life so just like I didn't let society dictate to me that sex out side of marriage was wrong for me I didn't let society determine for me what to do about those feelings. I decided to try sex outside of marriage and discovered on my own that sex outside of relationship was definitely not a plus for my life. I also discovered by experience that same sex relationships did not give to me what I was looking for. Now after 20 years of marriage and five children later, I have personally discovered that the original intent, one flesh, is the very best.
I know that I'm being long winded here and there is more that I can say but will close for now. Thanks for listening, may the Lord Jesus bless you with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.
Peter
· 6 months ago
Jennifer,
Just two quick (or not so quick) responses. :-)
(1) There is no reason to believe that the Adam and Eve story is literal. In fact, most Christian scholars -- indeed, the entire Catholic religion -- recognize the story to be a simplified version for easy consumption by the people. God didn't feel it necessary to explain His science.
But that doesn't answer your question. Is God expressing a preference by creating man and woman? Is he saying that anything other than that is sinful? I don't think the creation of Adam and Eve can lead directly to that conclusion. Of course male-female relationships are necessary to further the species. Of course. But that doesn't mean that other relationships are "sinful" or "wrong."
(2) The fact that homosexuality is well-documented in cultures throughout the world -- including Native American peoples before white "Christians" came to the Americas -- without stigma makes me think that you are just not quite right about the feeling that it's "wrong" not coming from society. You can't know for sure if your feelings were innate or from society because you have not (just as I have not) ever lived in a pure society free of anti-gay prejudices. Stealing, lying, adn cheating are different. You know they are wrong because you know they hurt other people. You know innately that if you had those acts commited against you, you would be hurt by those acts. I scarcely think you can clump those acts in with being gay.
Do you know that there are some Black kids in poor areas who hate being Black and wish they were white? Do you think this is natural and something that comes from societal prejudices against Black people?
These are just my opinions. I thank you for your response.
ShanBam
· 5 months ago
Wow, are you comparing a gay person (who loves, by the way), to an unrepentant murderer and bigot???? Your interpretation of that passage is loose and subjective. I have to stop reading right here.
Jennifer Thorne
· 5 months ago
Hello Peter;
Quick or not so quick, I like it either way.
1) Whether you take Adam and Eve as literal or not the reality is God still created man in His own image. The Catholic Faith does believe in the creation of all things through Jesus Christ it is clearly expressed in their catechism under girded by the appropriate scriptural references, such as Col 1:16, etc. What Catholics will say is that Creationism and evolution do not necessarily contradict each other. That does not mean that they fully subscribe and endorse evolution but they will not categorically refuse it. They are open to that evolutionary process to being able to fit into the reality that God create or "formed" man out of "dust from the ground." That could possibly explain the physical body but does not do anything for the soulish and spiritual part of the body. When it attempts to do this evolution becomes a theology and not science.
I do agree with you that the relationship between Adam and Eve does not in and of itself automatically say that sexual same sex relationships are sinful. It does show that sexual opposite sex lifetime relationships are set up by God Himself. So the question still is, are sexual same sex relationships sinful? You still have to interpret that through the fullness of scripture and again the only sanctified place that we see the sexual relationship in Scripture is that between male and female as one flesh. We do also see appropriate same sex relationships between family members and friends, like Ruth and Naomi or David and Johnathon. We also see sinful opposite sex sexual relationships. But no where in scripture do we see a sanctified sexual same sex relationship. We do see however the sinful sexual same sex relationships.
2) From your second paragraph it appears that you are making the assumption that it was "White Christians" that have propagated a "stigma" regarding homosexuality. Is that what idea what you are trying to assert here? I do not want to misunderstand you.
It is true that it would be difficult for me to innately know something about myself without any outside influence at all. I see my case and the case of the Black kids that you mention above as apples and oranges. The Black children can be seen always visibly as different. There skin color is always able to be seen. In my case my inner same sex attractions were not seen by others and I did not express them, I just experienced them. I grew up in a time (I'm 49) when homosexuality was not in the forefront of any regular conversation. It wasn't discussed in my elementary schools, high schools, or college for that matter. So it is far more possible for me, because of the time in which I grew up, and my particular settings, to have not had that outside influence prior to my own feelings of knowing it to be something other than OK.
I would also think that if your "argument" for a non biased society creating the self hatred to be true we would see much less of that (self hatred) in Scandinavia. They have had society sanctioned same sex relationships since 1985, over 20 years now. That is long enough for a generation of youth to be in their early 20's and not really known this stigma and self hatred. I have not heard of any studies that are demonstrating that this is the case. Of course I do not follow this daily so perhaps there may be and I've not been exposed to it. I would be happy to read any that you are aware of.
I have never heard of homosexuality being culturally accepted in any society at all. Can you point me to this literature? From what I have been exposed to and what I see today in our Media. Homosexuality is not really accepted by any society which is why such high pressure is being placed on just changing the laws everywhere to accept homosexuality. If there was a society that accepted it as "normal." then I would expect to read about it as a highlighted case demonstrating that and how well it is going. I do not see this anywhere either.
So, with those things said. I welcome your thoughtful reply and would enjoy continuing our discussion. I am finding it a bit challenging to get back quickly as my life is rather full at the moment with my family and church activities. I will do my best to keep current with you.
Randy
· 5 months ago
Hi David! I just fished this out of the spam filter. Sorry about that!
I am glad we are in an agreement. I think we just have to be honest and I think most people respect honesty when it is delivered with humility (something I am not that great at and have much to learn.
I look forward to your post.
Chuck Bridwell
· 5 months ago
Hi Joe,
First let me say, it's an honor to have the opportunity to address you this way. I learned so much from your book, "The Gay Gospel" and have even given it to several friends in ministry. I haven't read such a good book debunking people's twisting of scripture since Dr. Walter Martin's "Kingdom of The Cults." It never ceases to amaze me how people can try to twist God's Word to make it support almost anything.
And I agree that to God, all sin is still sin. Whether the sin is that of gossip as you mentioned in your statement above, or covetousness, or even un-forgiveness. But the Bible states that sexual sin, whether it be homo or heterosexual in nature is particularly grievous to God because it involves the body.
1 Corinthians 6:16-19 (NKJV) 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Thank you for all you are doing for His Kingdom, Chuck Bridwell
Chuck Bridwell
· 5 months ago
Hello Jennifer,
Let me point our that most protestant denominations don't teach "Once Saved, Always Saved." That from my understanding is primarily a Baptist Doctrine. I was originally converted in a small Baptist church and was taught this for the first decade of my Christian walk.
But then I became Pentecostal and I began studying this. And I found out that most Pentecostals, Methodist, Nazarenes, as well as many others believe that your salvation isn't on one day and off the next. But, you can walk away from your salvation if you choose to quench the Holy Spirit by choosing to continue in sin rather than allowing the Grace of God to change us into the likeness of Christ.
Chuck
Chuck Bridwell
· 5 months ago
Peter, Please forgive me for replying to your post as it appears to be addressed to Jennifer. But you seem to be missing the point of this Blog entirely. It's not about people wishing they could be something that they are not, like black children wishing they were white that you mentioned. I could give you dozens of examples of people not liking the way they were born, ranging from short people who wished they were taller to people coloring their hair because somehow they think they would be more attractive for some reason or other. I mean, some even resort to costly and painfull cosmetic surgery to try to be something God never intended, just so that they can like themselves.
And, so what if homosexuality has been practiced in every culture of the world. So has genocide, child abuse, and rape. Why not include cannibalism. That has been practiced as well. I regularly hear the argument that some animals practice homosexual behavior as well. And, a lot of animals eat their own young. Would you argue that this would be acceptable as well. I don't think that you would, but do you see my point. Just because something is "natural" doesn't make it acceptable to God. In His word, we are told that, since the fall of Adam and Eve, that we are all born with a sinful "nature" anyway.
But wait, you have already made it clear that you don't believe the Bible to be true. And God loves you so much that He gives you the freedom to choose whether believes Him or not. I have never met a practicing homosexual who truly believes the Bible to be 100% truth. After all, that is what makes you a Christian to begin with. And that is really the point of this Blog. Are you willing to take God at His "Word" which is the Bible, or will you continue to set your opinions above His will for your life. I am praying that you will come to a saving faith in Jesus.
Respectfully, Chuck
Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV) 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Randy
· 5 months ago
I really appreciate everyone who is commenting and carrying on these conversations. I love blogging :).
Chuck Bridwell
· 5 months ago
Hi Randy,
Although I will agree that God's grace is extended to all, the Bible clearly shows that to be forgiven, we must first be repentant. So, I suppose that if you are a repentant homosexual, then you will be forgiven for your previous acts of sexual immorality. And, if you are knowingly and defiantly continuing in your sin, then you are not.
I hope that you will forgive me if I step on your toes with this comment. I am not talking about people who are struggling with SSA and long for healing. It's just that I have just read a story that related to this topic has really struck a nerve with me.
A couple of days ago, Frank Lombard, an openly gay deacon at the gay affirming church, "The Episcopal Church of the Advocate" in Carrboro, North Carolina was charged with raping his five-year-old African-American male son, and then not only rapes the child, video records it, puts it on the internet and then offers the use of the child as a sex toy to other gay men.
He has admitted that this has been going on since the child was adopted as an infant. And that he wanted a child too young to tell what was going on, so he requested a black one "because they were easier to adopt than white ones were." He has even said that he regularly drugs the child into unconsciousness with Benedryl so that he can't tell anyone what he has been subjected to. All this went on for years while his male partner claims that he had no clue that it was going on in their home together. Do we really want to legalize gay marriage and make it even easier for homosexual couples to adopt?
IS THIS A GAY CHRISTIAN??? Or is this what happens when someone claims to be a Christian and then quenches the Holy Spirit who is trying to conform the individual into the image of Christ?
Romans 1:28-32 (NIV) Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Now I am in no way saying that I believe that all homosexuals are child abusers, but I do believe that, basically, when you tell the Holy Spirit to SHUT UP, He does and all your spirit hears is the Devil and then you will be conformed to Satan's wicked image instead.
You can be sure that if it were a heterosexual couple and a father had done this to a little girl, black or white, he would be crucified in the media and rightly so. He should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Again, I'm sorry for offending anyone with this post, but as a father of three and a grandfather of one, I am sickened and furious that this could happen and that for the most part the pro-gay media is being so quiet about it.
Chuck Bridwell
Stephen Black
· 5 months ago
The dialog here is terrific. I just wanted to chime in and say that it is good to see Joe Dallas here. I also hope to see everyone at the National Conference.
My heart goes out to those who struggle with the salvation and doubts and fears about the issue of eternal security. Very simply there is eternal security in Jesus Christ our Lord, but not in the traditions and doctrines of men. I used to have a very Baptist / Calvinistic / OSAS view of eternal security and then I started studying covenant and specifically what the Scriptures taught outside of church doctrine and traditions of men. I don't embrace the doctrines of men. Is there eternal security in Christ? Absolutely. Can someone make a choice to say NO to God? Didn't Satan? YES, I believe so. Unfortunately I came away in the beginning very frustrated dealing with all this theology, as it is not so neat and tidy in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as men like it in theological abstracts. No doubt sin is sin and we all struggle at different levels. However I found that growing in my understanding of covenant makes much more sense, i.e. New Testament(Covenant) - Old Testament(Covenant). Covenant is too big to unpack here. However, just as Jesus said: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
There are so many more passages like this, but this is the famous John 3:16 verse that all my precious Baptist brothers and sisters like to quote since the great Billy Graham made it so famous in the American church; and Billy Graham has been communicating that he is very concerned that 80% of those who prayed prayers at his crusades are on their way to hell. Pretty bold. I wonder if that would include people propagating a gay gospel?
God will have a people to Himself, those who love and practice righteousness. I am not the judge; JESUS CHRIST IS THE JUDGE. The teaching of the Gospel is not sinless perfection, it is growing in the light and love of Jesus Christ. For those who are living a lifestyle of embracing sin, I fear for them. I don't put stock in a person's praying prayers or baptism or church membership, I put my hope and trust completely in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for my sin and hope others will, "resulting in righteousness" "bearing good fruit" "obeying the truth" as they have "called upon the Lord to be saved." Can a person struggle with sin, any type of sin, i.e. sexual in nature and be a Christian? Absolutely! There are many examples of SINNING (sexual sinning) in the Scriptures. Will there be a people who thought that Jesus was their Lord and be told by Him that He never had intimacy with them (never knew them) that they were practicers of lawlessness and sin? Matt. 7:13-27. Absolutely. Isn't interesting in studying the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ, His Gospel that conforms the true believer to godliness that He never made it about praying prayers or Church attendance? What did Jesus make a true relationship with Him about no matter your struggle? Wasn't it a total surrender to following Him fully and picking up a cross of self denial in all areas of our life? Isn't the picture through out the Gospel about consistency that brings about disciples of maturity? I think so... I long to finish this race in righteousness, therefore I run in such a way to win, not just get by... I am personally in love with Jesus and have been walking with Him for over 26 years out of homosexuality and my foundation began with the fear of the Lord and the love of God that compels me. I was very fortunate to be a part of a real God-filled revival in the early 80s that was life transforming. I will never be the same, and it was the Word of God that changed me.
"If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain." 1 Tim. 6:3-5. Could the idea of being religious as a means for gain be our own lusts and desires? Could it be that in the last days men will heap to themselves ministers to teach them that it is okay to live in their desires and appetites?
I know I have quoted a lot of Scripture here... I love God's word. It is what saved me. Psa. 107:20, 1 Peter 1:22-24 - I was born again not by praying prayers or going to church, but by the seed of God, the seed of Truth and the power of the Holy Spirit by faith alone in Jesus Christ in an amazing revival. Please don't get me wrong... I certainly think we start by praying prayers. My heart goes out to so many who are so Biblically illiterate in the Church in this generation as the statistics came out last week. Truly there is a famine of the Word of God as prophesied in the last days in Amos. Therefore, I feel it is the Scriptures and the study of God's word that will in fact change the hearts of men and not traditions of men and doctrines. Gay Gospel? Well it is another gospel and it is one that Paul warned us about as we cannot be perfected by the works of the law. Those who preach another gospel that does not conform to godliness, and if they believe it and live it, they really should heed Paul's warning in Gal. 1:6-10 and let the foundation of the beginning of wisdom begin in our hearts to fear God and love His commands and obey them for this is the conclusion of everything and we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Ecc. 12:13-14.
Sincerely on the journey to love more like Jesus... Stephen
All Comments
New blog post: Are Gay Christians Really Saved? http://bit.ly/mcY8w
This comment was originally posted on Twitter
RT @RThomasETC: New blog post: Are Gay Christians Really Saved? http://bit.ly/mcY8w
This comment was originally posted on Twitter
In other words, to claim Christ as Lord AND Savior, & to then claim that you choose to participate in something which is antithetical to the teachings of Yeshua, results in having to be false in one of those assertions. This would be the same as saying that you're a Christian & also saying that you accept being an unrepentant mass murderer, or an unrepentant bigot. The 2 don't go together.
Christ meets us all at the point of our needs. However, He doesn't allow us to stay there. He leads us to clean up our lives, to turn away from our sins. Because He is holy, He cannot abide in us if we continue to embrace our sin.
Lawrence- I see your point and I've certainly heard it before. My question is whether you are looking at your statement that, "In other words, to claim Christ as Lord AND Savior, & to then claim that you choose to participate in something which is antithetical to the teachings of Yeshua" is broad enough. Man, if we had to judge everyone based on people that choose to participate in someting antithetical to the Bible, would anyone be able to make the cut? I'm just worried that your comment is singling out one group, one sin, and not realizing the pass it may imply to those that don't deal with that particular attraction/sexuality/identity.
Having read several of your posts on this important issue I am glad to find myself in agreement with you more and more. I spent to many years chained to a theology of exclusion based on preferences and cultural sensitivities rather than a simple and direct understanding of the teachings of the scripture. Having moved away from that restrictive place where freedom in Christ is the exception, rather than the rule, I have long since decided that I will no longer submit to those restrictions (Col. 2:20 - 3:1-12) and will confront them when I believe it is appropriate to do so.
I am currently working on a post for my blog which relates my conversation with my foster brother about this very issue; can Christians be gay. He struggled with SSA and his faith the last third of his life.
Keep up the good work...
Godspeed...
I think that the question is not can you be "gay" and a Christian, but what direction is your lifes devotion headed, towards Christ in all it's fullness or trying to part and partial it and retain parts of the old self, even after Christ has by His Spirit convicted you.
In the same way, I was also a Christian and a full view evolutionist. And in His proper time I have also left most of that, infact all of the behind. Did that make me less of a Christian or not a Christian, I do not believe so.
I am continually being conformed to His image.
Also a few years after I became a believer God began dealing with my drinking. It was totally getting in the way of my growth and He called me to change. I did not submit at first. God allowed me to continue until I basically hung myself and realized that what He was calling me to was far better. So, was I a Christian while I was in that struggle over alcohol, I believe I was, hence the struggle.
Really I believe that God deals with us just perfectly and calls us to greater levels of changed behavior on His time, when it is truly best for us. Who is to say when we should make that commitment out of the old life behaviors and into Holiness?
The comments will show up soon (whenever the synch occurs. Keep checking back :).
Scholars on both sides, and neutral scholars as well, have looked into this and there is truly no clear concensus. I read the New Testament in the original Greek, but even with that ability, I can't pretend to fully understand the context of these words in that time period. Some words, for example "arsenokoitai" in 1 Corinthians 6, were invented by Paul, so they are even more unclear.
This is why continuing revelation is, to me, so important. As a Quaker, I believe that only Jesus is the ultimate Word of God ("In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" -- my own translation). The Bible contains the inspired Words of God. But God can still inspire us today just like he did Paul and so many others. Because the Bible is unclear on this issue, in my opinion, I can only follow the Light of Christ and hope it guides me to clarity and certainty.
I think this is hard to do. I think that it's hard -- for all of us -- not to mix in cultural and social notions of right and wrong with a true interpretation of God's message on this issue. I am comfortable that I am following Christ's Light to the best of my meek human ability. I truly believe that if society didn't stigmatize gay people, then so many children wouldn't develop self-hatred issues over the issue. I don't believe -- and this is just my belief and opinion -- that these feelings come from God.
I have found after much prayer and scriptural scrutiny that one must love Christ above everyone and everything, including our sexual orientation and passionate desires. Jesus said " Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come lifeeverlasting". This includes our old lifestyles, sexual preferences etc. Jesus also said "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it".
Beloved, I know its not easy but to follow Christ we must crucify the flesh with it's passions and its desires. If you love Him you must deny yourself (that means to put all your trust and burdens on Him because on your own you will not be able to do it). "And he said to them all, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it" (Luke 9:23, 24).
One last thing my beloved in Christ. The Lord will not let you go through something you can not bear. Look and meditate on this verse " There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13). This approach may seem simplistic to some but it is scriptural, doable and sound doctrine. I leave you with this, "cast your burden upon the Lord and He shall sustain you, He shall never suffer the righteous to be moved" (Psalm 55:22).
Sincerely yours,
Philip Sr.
I have to agree with you to a point. I do believe that when we get to walk the streets of Heaven, that we may discuss what our differences of opinion here on Earth were. Things like , did we worshiping in a solemn style like the Christians of Martin Luther's day or Rocking for Jesus like a lot of the youth today. Did we sprinkle the newly saved or did we dunk 'em in water like an Oreo in a glass of milk. No, instead of being tempted to say "I told you so" about things that we had previously believed and maybe even argued about when we were here, I believe we will laugh at ourselves for being worried about unimportant "stuff."
And, as Brandy above said in difference to Lawrence's statement,"Man, if we had to judge everyone based on people that choose to participate in something antithetical to the Bible, would anyone be able to make the cut?" The question is not whether anyone would make it. Obviously, we wouldn't, or we wouldn't have needed a savior to begin with. The question is, whether our relationship with Christ was real enough to give us a desire to please Him. The Apostle Paul said in Ephesians. 2:8, "that we are saved by grace through faith." But he also said in James 2:20, "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? " It's a shame that a lot of people see Jesus as a "Get out of Hell" card and maybe even believe that a statement of faith is enough to qualify as a relationship with Christ. That's no different than the heterosexual who chooses to "say" their wedding vows, and then commits adultery on their spouse at every opportunity. These two people may share the same last name, but do they really have a marriage? A true relationship with Christ will bring about a change. that's what it means when the Bible says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."
And let's not forget the words of Jesus about how he will judge:
Matthew 7:21-23 l(New King James Version)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
You said, I just believe that we won’t be arguing about this walking down the streets of gold. I Agree. I have had to bit my tongue a few times this week. It's going to be incredible to see Jesus face to face. :excited: woohoo!!
I find this particular subject one that seems to be very difficult for people to receive - "The Gay Gospel." This is the very subject that I believe the Father is going to have me write on in detail that will underscore the beginning of wisdom from God & His word, and compel us by the Love of His Spirit which results in an adoration of HIM in obeying Him and dying to our appetites and our flesh.
May all those who call upon the Lord work out their salvation in fear and awe of almighty God.
So here's the WORD OF THE LORD:
Ephesians 5:1-9 AMPLIFIED...
"THEREFORE BE imitators of God [copy Him and follow His example], as well-beloved children [imitate their father]. And walk in love, [esteeming and delighting in one another] as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a [a]slain offering and sacrifice to God [for you, so that it became] a sweet fragrance.But immorality (sexual vice of any kind) and all impurity of lustful, rich, wasteful living or greediness must not even be named among you, as is fitting and proper among saints, people who are consecrated to God, or people who call themselves Christians. Let there be no filthiness (obscenity, indecency) nor foolish and sinful (silly and corrupt) talk, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting or becoming; but instead voice your thankfulness [to God]. For be sure of this: that no person practicing sexual vice or impurity in thought or in life, or one who is covetous [who has lustful desire for the property of others and is greedy for gain]--for he [in effect] is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments [for these sins], for through these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of rebellion and disobedience. So do not associate or be sharers with them. For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of Light [lead the lives of those native-born to the Light]. For the fruit (the effect, the product) of the Light or [c]the Spirit [consists] in every form of kindly goodness, uprightness of heart, and trueness of life."
So is it mean or unkind to merely speak the Word of God in truth and in love, especially since you want people to really be there in eternity? Learning to love God fully and love people more sincerely....
Stephen
In all seriousness...yes.
Thank you so much for chiming in and I encourage you all to keep going. See you tomorrow.
There are some who believe homosexuals are called to celibacy. Some who believe God blesses same-sex relationships. Both are welcome at the table and both are right because they are following their God-given conscience and convictions with the help of God's word. In the end it will not matter who was right and who was wrong. The issue is not about who's having gay sex, but who's a truly loving person, in the deepest part of themselves. This has nothing to do with sexuality.
We are called to love one another, this is the sum of all the commandments. Gay and Christian are NOT mutually exclusive. ...
Let's face it, sanctification is a wholly unique process for us all. I think we are to compel each other (believers) toward righteousness but the path is led by the Lord alone. I have to trust that Him in that. I can walk with someone but my part is limited to simply that: walking with them (again other believers.)
Thank you for your comment.
Thank you for adding your comments.
thanks for adding your thoughts. That last scripture deeply disturbed me as a young Christian and it always keeps me on my toes and pressing into communion with Him. Thank yo for the reminder.
Exactly. I'm excited for that day too.
Thank you.
The whole bible is a huge relational roadmap of examples of God's will, human self-sufficiency gone amok, good relationships ... lots of bad relationships, conflict, peace ... on and on. That's why I say life is so much more than this one issue.
That stated, for God to say even one word is a universe worth of meaning and importance. They are "... the words of Life." Those few verses in the context of the whole stewarded by the Holy Spirit completely transformed my identity and worldview.
And actually the sum of all commandments is this
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to q put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
I can appreciate the sentiment and even the desire but this issue is not about who is a truly loving person in the deepest part of themselves. If that were true those people wouldn't need a Savior to save them from their sins.
All have fallen short, all of us need to be saved through faith. That's basic Christian doctrine.
thanks for adding your opinions.
It is funny because my brother in law has moved from Protestant to Catholic and has been email conversing with me for a couple of years. I must admit that getting into Catholic theology has been very refreshing and appealing but I just haven't been able to make that switch. For the first year he kept referring to me about once saved always save. It took me a full year of repeatedly telling him that I do not subscribe to that position, even though it is a popular Protestant position. Finally he read my blog and commented, wow you are very Catholic in your beliefs. I'm taking that as a great compliment.
Thanks for your comments. I also agree that Jesus is the living Word of God made flesh. Our lives will forever draw nearer to Him and Know him more fully the longer that we walk with Him.
I do believe that interpreting the bible is not that complicated. One of the first things that I learned as a believer is that you interpret the bible one word at a time, the word in the context of the sentence, the sentence in the context of the paragraph, the paragraph in the context of the chapter, the chapter in the context of the subject, the subject in the context of the book, and each book in context relative to all the other books of scripture.
This would be true for any written document, not just the bible. Although you say that in this subject there is no "clear consensus" I believe is not true. You have to start every thing from God's perspective from the beginning. He made them male and female, the fullest human representation of the image of God. Even Jesus verified this fact, allowing for Moses and divorce, but it was never the original intent.
Any interpreter can take things out of context, not intentionally, but still a poor interpretation. The bible speaks of only two sanctioned positions of being, married (male and female cleaving becoming one flesh) or single. Any other schism from that is not what God wants for His children. That doesn't mean that two people of the opposite sex can't get it wrong, they can and do all the time. Just look at our society.
The idea that society puts a stigma on homosexuality and is the root cause of self hatred does not make sense to me. I knew from the beginning that my same sex attractions for women (sexualized attractions) were wrong, not because society said so but because I just knew it, just like I knew that lying, cheating, or stealing was wrong. What i didn't know was what to do with those feelings. I could not get rid of them. I didn't know the Lord at that time in my life so just like I didn't let society dictate to me that sex out side of marriage was wrong for me I didn't let society determine for me what to do about those feelings. I decided to try sex outside of marriage and discovered on my own that sex outside of relationship was definitely not a plus for my life. I also discovered by experience that same sex relationships did not give to me what I was looking for. Now after 20 years of marriage and five children later, I have personally discovered that the original intent, one flesh, is the very best.
I know that I'm being long winded here and there is more that I can say but will close for now. Thanks for listening, may the Lord Jesus bless you with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.
Just two quick (or not so quick) responses. :-)
(1) There is no reason to believe that the Adam and Eve story is literal. In fact, most Christian scholars -- indeed, the entire Catholic religion -- recognize the story to be a simplified version for easy consumption by the people. God didn't feel it necessary to explain His science.
But that doesn't answer your question. Is God expressing a preference by creating man and woman? Is he saying that anything other than that is sinful? I don't think the creation of Adam and Eve can lead directly to that conclusion. Of course male-female relationships are necessary to further the species. Of course. But that doesn't mean that other relationships are "sinful" or "wrong."
(2) The fact that homosexuality is well-documented in cultures throughout the world -- including Native American peoples before white "Christians" came to the Americas -- without stigma makes me think that you are just not quite right about the feeling that it's "wrong" not coming from society. You can't know for sure if your feelings were innate or from society because you have not (just as I have not) ever lived in a pure society free of anti-gay prejudices. Stealing, lying, adn cheating are different. You know they are wrong because you know they hurt other people. You know innately that if you had those acts commited against you, you would be hurt by those acts. I scarcely think you can clump those acts in with being gay.
Do you know that there are some Black kids in poor areas who hate being Black and wish they were white? Do you think this is natural and something that comes from societal prejudices against Black people?
These are just my opinions. I thank you for your response.
Quick or not so quick, I like it either way.
1) Whether you take Adam and Eve as literal or not the reality is God still created man in His own image. The Catholic Faith does believe in the creation of all things through Jesus Christ it is clearly expressed in their catechism under girded by the appropriate scriptural references, such as Col 1:16, etc. What Catholics will say is that Creationism and evolution do not necessarily contradict each other. That does not mean that they fully subscribe and endorse evolution but they will not categorically refuse it. They are open to that evolutionary process to being able to fit into the reality that God create or "formed" man out of "dust from the ground." That could possibly explain the physical body but does not do anything for the soulish and spiritual part of the body. When it attempts to do this evolution becomes a theology and not science.
I do agree with you that the relationship between Adam and Eve does not in and of itself automatically say that sexual same sex relationships are sinful. It does show that sexual opposite sex lifetime relationships are set up by God Himself. So the question still is, are sexual same sex relationships sinful? You still have to interpret that through the fullness of scripture and again the only sanctified place that we see the sexual relationship in Scripture is that between male and female as one flesh. We do also see appropriate same sex relationships between family members and friends, like Ruth and Naomi or David and Johnathon. We also see sinful opposite sex sexual relationships. But no where in scripture do we see a sanctified sexual same sex relationship. We do see however the sinful sexual same sex relationships.
2) From your second paragraph it appears that you are making the assumption that it was "White Christians" that have propagated a "stigma" regarding homosexuality. Is that what idea what you are trying to assert here? I do not want to misunderstand you.
It is true that it would be difficult for me to innately know something about myself without any outside influence at all. I see my case and the case of the Black kids that you mention above as apples and oranges. The Black children can be seen always visibly as different. There skin color is always able to be seen. In my case my inner same sex attractions were not seen by others and I did not express them, I just experienced them. I grew up in a time (I'm 49) when homosexuality was not in the forefront of any regular conversation. It wasn't discussed in my elementary schools, high schools, or college for that matter. So it is far more possible for me, because of the time in which I grew up, and my particular settings, to have not had that outside influence prior to my own feelings of knowing it to be something other than OK.
I would also think that if your "argument" for a non biased society creating the self hatred to be true we would see much less of that (self hatred) in Scandinavia. They have had society sanctioned same sex relationships since 1985, over 20 years now. That is long enough for a generation of youth to be in their early 20's and not really known this stigma and self hatred. I have not heard of any studies that are demonstrating that this is the case. Of course I do not follow this daily so perhaps there may be and I've not been exposed to it. I would be happy to read any that you are aware of.
I have never heard of homosexuality being culturally accepted in any society at all. Can you point me to this literature? From what I have been exposed to and what I see today in our Media. Homosexuality is not really accepted by any society which is why such high pressure is being placed on just changing the laws everywhere to accept homosexuality. If there was a society that accepted it as "normal." then I would expect to read about it as a highlighted case demonstrating that and how well it is going. I do not see this anywhere either.
So, with those things said. I welcome your thoughtful reply and would enjoy continuing our discussion. I am finding it a bit challenging to get back quickly as my life is rather full at the moment with my family and church activities. I will do my best to keep current with you.
I am glad we are in an agreement. I think we just have to be honest and I think most people respect honesty when it is delivered with humility (something I am not that great at and have much to learn.
I look forward to your post.
First let me say, it's an honor to have the opportunity to address you this way. I learned so much from your book, "The Gay Gospel" and have even given it to several friends in ministry. I haven't read such a good book debunking people's twisting of scripture since Dr. Walter Martin's "Kingdom of The Cults." It never ceases to amaze me how people can try to twist God's Word to make it support almost anything.
And I agree that to God, all sin is still sin. Whether the sin is that of gossip as you mentioned in your statement above, or covetousness, or even un-forgiveness. But the Bible states that sexual sin, whether it be homo or heterosexual in nature is particularly grievous to God because it involves the body.
1 Corinthians 6:16-19 (NKJV)
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Thank you for all you are doing for His Kingdom,
Chuck Bridwell
Let me point our that most protestant denominations don't teach "Once Saved, Always Saved." That from my understanding is primarily a Baptist Doctrine. I was originally converted in a small Baptist church and was taught this for the first decade of my Christian walk.
But then I became Pentecostal and I began studying this. And I found out that most Pentecostals, Methodist, Nazarenes, as well as many others believe that your salvation isn't on one day and off the next. But, you can walk away from your salvation if you choose to quench the Holy Spirit by choosing to continue in sin rather than allowing the Grace of God to change us into the likeness of Christ.
Chuck
Please forgive me for replying to your post as it appears to be addressed to Jennifer. But you seem to be missing the point of this Blog entirely. It's not about people wishing they could be something that they are not, like black children wishing they were white that you mentioned. I could give you dozens of examples of people not liking the way they were born, ranging from short people who wished they were taller to people coloring their hair because somehow they think they would be more attractive for some reason or other. I mean, some even resort to costly and painfull cosmetic surgery to try to be something God never intended, just so that they can like themselves.
And, so what if homosexuality has been practiced in every culture of the world. So has genocide, child abuse, and rape. Why not include cannibalism. That has been practiced as well. I regularly hear the argument that some animals practice homosexual behavior as well. And, a lot of animals eat their own young. Would you argue that this would be acceptable as well. I don't think that you would, but do you see my point. Just because something is "natural" doesn't make it acceptable to God. In His word, we are told that, since the fall of Adam and Eve, that we are all born with a sinful "nature" anyway.
But wait, you have already made it clear that you don't believe the Bible to be true. And God loves you so much that He gives you the freedom to choose whether believes Him or not. I have never met a practicing homosexual who truly believes the Bible to be 100% truth. After all, that is what makes you a Christian to begin with. And that is really the point of this Blog. Are you willing to take God at His "Word" which is the Bible, or will you continue to set your opinions above His will for your life. I am praying that you will come to a saving faith in Jesus.
Respectfully,
Chuck
Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Although I will agree that God's grace is extended to all, the Bible clearly shows that to be forgiven, we must first be repentant. So, I suppose that if you are a repentant homosexual, then you will be forgiven for your previous acts of sexual immorality. And, if you are knowingly and defiantly continuing in your sin, then you are not.
I hope that you will forgive me if I step on your toes with this comment. I am not talking about people who are struggling with SSA and long for healing. It's just that I have just read a story that related to this topic has really struck a nerve with me.
A couple of days ago, Frank Lombard, an openly gay deacon at the gay affirming church, "The Episcopal Church of the Advocate" in Carrboro, North Carolina was charged with raping his five-year-old African-American male son, and then not only rapes the child, video records it, puts it on the internet and then offers the use of the child as a sex toy to other gay men.
He has admitted that this has been going on since the child was adopted as an infant. And that he wanted a child too young to tell what was going on, so he requested a black one "because they were easier to adopt than white ones were." He has even said that he regularly drugs the child into unconsciousness with Benedryl so that he can't tell anyone what he has been subjected to. All this went on for years while his male partner claims that he had no clue that it was going on in their home together. Do we really want to legalize gay marriage and make it even easier for homosexual couples to adopt?
IS THIS A GAY CHRISTIAN??? Or is this what happens when someone claims to be a Christian and then quenches the Holy Spirit who is trying to conform the individual into the image of Christ?
Romans 1:28-32 (NIV)
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Now I am in no way saying that I believe that all homosexuals are child abusers, but I do believe that, basically, when you tell the Holy Spirit to SHUT UP, He does and all your spirit hears is the Devil and then you will be conformed to Satan's wicked image instead.
You can be sure that if it were a heterosexual couple and a father had done this to a little girl, black or white, he would be crucified in the media and rightly so. He should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Again, I'm sorry for offending anyone with this post, but as a father of three and a grandfather of one, I am sickened and furious that this could happen and that for the most part the pro-gay media is being so quiet about it.
Chuck Bridwell
My heart goes out to those who struggle with the salvation and doubts and fears about the issue of eternal security. Very simply there is eternal security in Jesus Christ our Lord, but not in the traditions and doctrines of men. I used to have a very Baptist / Calvinistic / OSAS view of eternal security and then I started studying covenant and specifically what the Scriptures taught outside of church doctrine and traditions of men. I don't embrace the doctrines of men. Is there eternal security in Christ? Absolutely. Can someone make a choice to say NO to God? Didn't Satan? YES, I believe so. Unfortunately I came away in the beginning very frustrated dealing with all this theology, as it is not so neat and tidy in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as men like it in theological abstracts. No doubt sin is sin and we all struggle at different levels. However I found that growing in my understanding of covenant makes much more sense, i.e. New Testament(Covenant) - Old Testament(Covenant). Covenant is too big to unpack here. However, just as Jesus said: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
There are so many more passages like this, but this is the famous John 3:16 verse that all my precious Baptist brothers and sisters like to quote since the great Billy Graham made it so famous in the American church; and Billy Graham has been communicating that he is very concerned that 80% of those who prayed prayers at his crusades are on their way to hell. Pretty bold. I wonder if that would include people propagating a gay gospel?
God will have a people to Himself, those who love and practice righteousness. I am not the judge; JESUS CHRIST IS THE JUDGE. The teaching of the Gospel is not sinless perfection, it is growing in the light and love of Jesus Christ. For those who are living a lifestyle of embracing sin, I fear for them. I don't put stock in a person's praying prayers or baptism or church membership, I put my hope and trust completely in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for my sin and hope others will, "resulting in righteousness" "bearing good fruit" "obeying the truth" as they have "called upon the Lord to be saved." Can a person struggle with sin, any type of sin, i.e. sexual in nature and be a Christian? Absolutely! There are many examples of SINNING (sexual sinning) in the Scriptures. Will there be a people who thought that Jesus was their Lord and be told by Him that He never had intimacy with them (never knew them) that they were practicers of lawlessness and sin? Matt. 7:13-27. Absolutely. Isn't interesting in studying the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ, His Gospel that conforms the true believer to godliness that He never made it about praying prayers or Church attendance? What did Jesus make a true relationship with Him about no matter your struggle? Wasn't it a total surrender to following Him fully and picking up a cross of self denial in all areas of our life? Isn't the picture through out the Gospel about consistency that brings about disciples of maturity? I think so... I long to finish this race in righteousness, therefore I run in such a way to win, not just get by... I am personally in love with Jesus and have been walking with Him for over 26 years out of homosexuality and my foundation began with the fear of the Lord and the love of God that compels me. I was very fortunate to be a part of a real God-filled revival in the early 80s that was life transforming. I will never be the same, and it was the Word of God that changed me.
"If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain." 1 Tim. 6:3-5. Could the idea of being religious as a means for gain be our own lusts and desires? Could it be that in the last days men will heap to themselves ministers to teach them that it is okay to live in their desires and appetites?
I know I have quoted a lot of Scripture here... I love God's word. It is what saved me. Psa. 107:20, 1 Peter 1:22-24 - I was born again not by praying prayers or going to church, but by the seed of God, the seed of Truth and the power of the Holy Spirit by faith alone in Jesus Christ in an amazing revival. Please don't get me wrong... I certainly think we start by praying prayers. My heart goes out to so many who are so Biblically illiterate in the Church in this generation as the statistics came out last week. Truly there is a famine of the Word of God as prophesied in the last days in Amos. Therefore, I feel it is the Scriptures and the study of God's word that will in fact change the hearts of men and not traditions of men and doctrines. Gay Gospel? Well it is another gospel and it is one that Paul warned us about as we cannot be perfected by the works of the law. Those who preach another gospel that does not conform to godliness, and if they believe it and live it, they really should heed Paul's warning in Gal. 1:6-10 and let the foundation of the beginning of wisdom begin in our hearts to fear God and love His commands and obey them for this is the conclusion of everything and we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Ecc. 12:13-14.
Sincerely on the journey to love more like Jesus...
Stephen